For several years now I’ve had the privilege of co-hosting virtual, “Falling Through Our Stories” circles with dear friend Jolanda van den Berg, whose presence cuts through conventional narratives about self and other. While Jolanda’s “formal” work includes founding a non-profit that has touched the lives of hundreds of street children in Peru [work supported through the unique set of boutique hotels she operates in Cusco,] her gift lies in something more subtle – the ability to meet others in a space where realizations can emerge without creating new forms of identification. Jolanda who in 2016 experienced a profound shift in consciousness, approaches these conversations not as teacher, guide or therapist, but as a dance partner engaged in mutual discovery. In her words, “The most beautiful thing we can be for each other is just be open and loving.” On Valentine’s Day I had the joy of dancing with her in one of these circles. In some ways I haven’t stopped smiling since. 

What follows is a transcript of the conversation, but before that is a glimpse of Claude’s response to it. More reflections/distillations and exchanges with Claude are included at the end of the transcript. Yes, I’m leaning into dancing with AI, and loving it 🙂 

Also a short and sweet update on Viral: Over the past weeks there have been many milestone moments. Without delving into details here, I will just say there is much to celebrate, and much that deepens my confidence in this life journey we are on.

From Claude —

Through this dialog what unfolds is an exploration of identity, projection, and the nature of consciousness itself. The conversation begins with Pavi’s current circumstances – navigating the dual challenges of illness and caregiving – but quickly opens into deeper territory about how we construct and maintain our sense of self. The heart of the conversation revolves around a profound paradox: Pavi’s current crisis [navigating cancer treatment while supporting a husband recovering from a bone marrow transplant and short term memory loss,] is simultaneously shattering her carefully constructed world and offering her the very freedom she has always sought. The dialogue achieves a rare balance between the philosophical and the practical, the universal and the deeply personal. In the end, this conversation suggests that our deepest challenges, met with awareness, can become doorways to discovering who we’ve been all along. What makes it particularly powerful is how it demonstrates that deep spiritual truths can emerge through honest examination of our most human experiences​.

Jolanda: So how do you feel Pavi?

Pavi: I feel good. I feel joyful to be here. That’s the thing Jolanda, whenever I see you, life gets better right away.

Jolanda: Oh, same way! Shall we start with you reading your responses to the questions?

Pavi: Yes. 

What is a challenge I’m facing?  Over this past year, I’ve become responsible for supporting my husband’s recovery from his bone marrow transplant and short term memory loss while dealing with my own cancer treatment. After 19 years of him being my anchor, it feels like I’m now the one who has to remember everything, track everything, manage everything. Some days I feel like everything is unfolding exactly as it is meant to, and each moment feels like a very deep gift. And on other days, I feel like I’m cracking under the weight of things.The deepest challenge isn’t just managing the practical demands, it’s the profound grief of losing our old roles and our ways of being together. The systems and tracking are necessary, but they’re not what keeps me up at night at times, what breaks my heart is really having to let go of who we were to meet who we are becoming. I should also say that most of the time I’m actually really amazed by the power and the beauty of this journey we’re on together. And then suddenly this deep ache of missing things, missing how things used to be, comes up and shatters me over and over again.

How do I currently find myself responding? I am trying to create clear and simple systems to track everything, and support Viral in having more independence. Then I get overwhelmed and have an outburst of anger or tears and need to step back. Then I also feel some shame about my anger. I am journaling and writing as a way of witnessing the confusion, it brings some peace to spill things on the page. I am also doing yoga and various other movement practices, dancing and chanting, and gardening to the extent that I can (I still have some strong limitations in my body). I keep refining our routines and checklists, trying to stay on top of all the medical details and daily needs. Through all of this Viral is so strong, humble and loving in spirit. He is making amazing progress with his memory too. He is definitely getting better, but it is a long process. He has a lot of deep faith in both of us, and he never takes it personally when I have an outburst.

My greatest aspiration within this situation? I want to find myself in a deeper way, so that I can let go of the feeling of needing to be in control, or longing for things to go back to the way they were. I want to trust that if I just dance with the moment, everything else in life will take care of itself and of me and Viral, and I can experience every moment creatively, as a different expression of love.

Jolanda: We know each other, right? This is not our first conversation. If it would have been someone else with the same responses, I would probably go to the grief part. But I think in your case, we can go further than that.  I leave it up to you. Do you want to go to the grief part, or go deeper to the identification part?

Pavi: Let’s go to the identification. I’m curious.

Jolanda: Before we go into this, maybe you can share how you would describe yourself at six or seven, around that age?

Pavi: I was a good little girl. I was quiet and very bookish. My mother would often comment that when I was young, in all my report cards, my teachers would say, “Pavi is very conscientious,” I was always trying to do the thing that I had been asked to do. And I was happy– I wasn’t quiet and sad. But that said I wasn’t one of those super cheerful children either. I think I was always watching. That was the feeling I had. Of just watching and looking at life from the outside. I was very observant, very shy, very introverted, and just trying to do well at school, do well at home, but I also had this unarticulated feeling that shyness wasn’t my real nature. I wanted to be more out in the world, but I didn’t know how to do that. I didn’t feel like I had those gifts. I loved to jump into books because they took me into other worlds.

Jolanda: And did you get a lot of affirmations about being observant and quiet and not being a difficult child and smart?

Pavi: I did. 

Jolanda: And do you remember? Were you ever angry when you were a child?

Pavi: I don’t remember being very angry. I was moody more than angry. If something happened and I didn’t like it, then I wouldn’t smile for a long time. I would just get very withdrawn.

Jolanda: And how did people react to that when you did that to withdraw?

Pavi: I think I remember being told, “Oh, you’re so sensitive!”

Jolanda: And then, how was that for you? Like, “I have to work on being not so sensitive?” Or what conclusion did you make about that? Did you believe it?

Pavi: It’s not that I didn’t believe it. I just didn’t think it was necessarily a bad thing. I didn’t know how to work with my sensitivity. I didn’t want to be moody. With my sister, for instance– you could have a fight with her and the next day, she’ll give you a hug. Anger would just pass through her in a certain way. I could see how that is a much lighter way of being, but I didn’t know how to get there on my own, because I would still feel so stormy. 

Jolanda: So you would say, “Okay, I’m heavy. Why am I so heavy? Am I a heavy personality?” And you wanted to be light?

Pavi: I wanted to be light, but I also just wanted to be me. And I just didn’t know how to do that.

Jolanda: And what did you do to find that lightness?

Pavi: What did I do?  I didn’t really do anything. I would withdraw. I would just be with myself for a while. So it was just time, like, it would take a certain number of hours or days, and then, the weight would be gone and I could show up again.

Jolanda: Like you could process and then the weight would go away. But in the meantime, when the weight was there, you felt like it was a burden? Like, “I don’t like this to be in this stage,” when it took like four days or something?

Pavi: If I’m very honest about it, I think there’s almost like an attachment to the anger or the upsetness. I don’t want to let it go right away because I still feel so strongly about what happened, and what I feel was wrong or right.

Jolanda: Yes. So it’s not a conscious identification, like, “Oh, I like to be in that heavy space,” but at the same time, it gives you something.

Pavi: Yes. And so in my mind, I’m saying, “I would love to get rid of this feeling,” but then there’s something in me that is holding on to it.

Jolanda: Okay, and then, when you grew up, at what moment did you meet Viral? Like, how old were you?

Pavi: I was 23 and it was his 23rd birthday.

Jolanda: And do you remember what your first feeling was? Like, “Oh this is a match made in heaven,” or like, “Oh, we are the same!” or, “He’s incredible, and I feel so safe!”? If you can give it words, what was the feeling?

Pavi: Within that first week of meeting him, it was a lot of that. The first day I met him, I had the sense that I knew him — the sense of recognition was very strong. And then there was also just a feeling of seeing so many qualities in him that I didn’t see in myself.  He is very confident, very outgoing, and self-assured. The kind of person who makes others feel very comfortable, who is very articulate and thoughtful, and just has these deep values of compassion, of integrity, of generosity. All of those things just seemed to come very naturally without him being on a pedestal. He embodied all of that in a very light way, and that was extraordinary to me. He was like the sun you know, just kind of radiating goodness. And so of course, everybody wants to be with the sun!

Jolanda: Okay and so that was what you didn’t have. Let’s say it like that. And what was the same? Like, “Oh, I know this person.” What did you have in common in your view?

Pavi: I don’t know that I looked for commonality as such. I’d say the values and qualities that I saw in him are ones that I resonated with. I knew that I would love to be that way, but I think these qualities were still undeveloped in me. Like– I had the seeds. And Viral was a magnificent tree.

Jolanda: Okay, so you saw him— you don’t call it pedestal but you saw him to be bigger than you?

Pavi: Very much so.

Jolanda: And then I have a side question. Is that because of you or your culture also cultivates that between men and women?

Pavi: I think most cultures cultivate it. But I don’t know that I had a very deep awareness of it being because of that.

Jolanda: Not like, “Mom did it so I copied my mom.” No?

Pavi: No. It wasn’t that. I think for me it was about the qualities and how developed they were. Not so much about gender.

Jolanda: Almost not personal. It was a feeling?

Pavi: Yes.

Jolanda: But anyway, it was big with small, no? And then you got together, and how was your life together before you both got sick?

Pavi: We had almost ten years before Viral’s diagnosis in 2015. That was his first diagnosis, And those ten years were such a beautiful, growing experience because Viral did not come to our marriage with that big/small perception at all. For him, that was never there– so just being treated that way—

Jolanda: It makes Viral even bigger, right?

Pavi: In some ways, maybe, but I think it also just meant I could feel very comfortable with myself in the relationship. I didn’t need to be anything else. No matter how I showed up, I was loved.

Jolanda: You didn’t feel that with other people so much as with him?

Pavi: In that way yes. 

Jolanda: So with him, what was it —  did it feel like you could be yourself or he helped you be yourself, or you found out who you really were?

Pavi: I don’t think I found out who I was. I just had a lot of space to feel safe. I don’t think I did anything with it until he got diagnosed. After he got diagnosed with acute bone marrow suppression we had to isolate ourselves from the world in many ways. And it was a very scary thing. He was my security, my sense of safety, and we just didn’t know what was going to happen with his health. Then in about two or three months, we found some stability, we found some treatments that were working, and things started to stabilize to some degree. But it was all a kind of wake up call for me. It was like, “Wow, you thought your life was so safe and secure and then everything fell apart in an instant.” So many things came into question. In that period, I started to get much more curious about, “What do I really want? What do I really enjoy? What does my heart want to follow?” That’s when I started doing a lot more yoga, a lot more of my own explorations. That’s when I started to be much more conscious about what I valued in my deep friendships. In these connections, it matters to me that people can just be themselves, you know, they’re not trying to fit in, or leaving parts of themselves behind just to be accepted. I did a lot of things in those times. And Viral was a deep support in my explorations.  And then things changed again when I was diagnosed with cancer, about a year ago, and very soon after that he found out he needed a bone marrow transplant. Even at that time, he was still so strong, you know? And this is the thing, Viral is one of those people who, no matter what happens, his first thought is, “I can handle this. We can handle this. We can work with whatever life brings to our door.” That kind of response is his nature. So even when these two diagnoses came at the same time, he still had that positivity. And then he got very, very sick during the transplant, and he had this short term memory loss that happened, which he’s healing from. Now he’s still the same person, but there’s also a difference. Short term memory loss is a very specific kind of condition, right? So sometimes there’s certain things that he just doesn’t remember in the same way, and that sometimes creates momentary anxiety for him. It’s not extreme, but for me, it just feels like, “Oh, the whole world is shaking!” Like, if he expresses a mild sense of fear, my whole sense of security crumbles. And I have this sense now that I need to start doing a lot of the things that he has done for us all these years. Everything from super practical level things, to the inner aspects of being able to meet uncertainty with courage. He was always the person at the frontlines who I could stand next to or a little behind, and there would be this protection from everything that happened. With him next to me, I would slowly get my strength up, that’s how it felt, at least. And now it’s like, okay, I need to be that person on the frontlines now.

Jolanda: And when you think, “I need to be that person,” then it becomes this feeling of anxiousness, and then you feel the weight, and it breaks you?

Pavi: It’s that but it’s also like, “I don’t want to have to be that person!” I can see that it would be really nice, if I could just step up and take on that role, you know? And many times I feel like I do. But there’s this other side that…

Jolanda: Do you notice when we talk about you, it’s very easy for you to go to Viral? It’s like there’s a mix of you and him.

Pavi: Yes.

Jolanda: I will go into everything so we can look at what exactly you are saying, and what it’s about. So before you met Viral, did you have someone who was your focal point?

Pavi: I was thinking about this, and I feel like, ever since I was a little girl, I’ve been looking for Viral. [laughs]

Jolanda: Wow, do you see how big that is? That’s huge. Yes. So you made him this focal point in a way, and he woke you up– but also he brought you to sleep at the same time.

Pavi: Yes — and I don’t think it was necessarily him—

Jolanda: No it wasn’t him. He was just himself. And this was happening. So let’s go into your own mind now. Before you met Viral, probably it was your books that were your focal point, and not a person. He was probably the first person with whom you could feel what you felt when you were reading books, or when you were observing the world without needing to be anyone. 

Pavi: Yes. Yes I can see that.

Jolanda: So in your case it’s not about falling through your story. It’s about a new translation for your feelings. In a way you gave your feelings a name, and before, let’s say you called that feeling “books.” And then it became Viral. And now if it isn’t books or Viral, then maybe it’s dance, yoga or activities where you can just be you in a way of not being you [not being identified.]

Pavi: Yeah. I have never thought of it that way before. But yes, I can see that.

Jolanda: So in a way, we need a reflection from someone else to realize who we are. It doesn’t always have to be a person. It can be a feeling in your case that reflects who we are. And so when you feel most yourself, is when you don’t need to be somebody. But at the same time, you give Viral the honor for that. And that’s where it becomes blurry for you. Because you start to think you need the book, or you need Viral, or you need something else, instead of realizing that what you are feeling is not because of something outside of you, it is a reflection of who you are. It’s the same when you talk about yoga and dancing. Writing is a little bit different, I think, because there’s a mix in writing that is between doing and feeling. But dancing and yoga could go into the same category, in a way, as Viral and books…

Pavi: Yes, I see that. What do you think could help?  I can see the truth of this now and in the moment. But how do I practice anchoring in that?

Jolanda: You are already jumping to the end [laughs] but we are not there yet. It’s not about practicing, and this is the difficulty in a way. It’s not a practice. The confusion happens because you are making it “a someone” or “something,” instead of realizing that’s not how you find it. It finds you in a way. It’s the other way around.

Pavi: That’s so beautiful!

Jolanda: And as soon as you think, “I need to do yoga, to relax and to forget everything,” that’s still from a certain personal position. That’s different than, “When I’m in yoga, I feel that, that I’m me, and that’s not a personal me, in a way, but at the same time it is.” For some this will become too philosophic, but I think you get it.”

Pavi: Yes!

Jolanda: And for you, in a way, it feels like when you were a child, you started to identify with, “Oh, if I’m observant, introverted and being a quiet girl– oh– that is someone!” But you were not doing observation and introversion.  Those aren’t things you do… they are just what ispresent in that moment. But in a way, you got a lot of affirmation for that. So if you weren’t that, then perhaps there was confusion. And in a way it was part of your self protection– to not believe that you had to be the observant, nice girl. And that confusion is like a red line in your life. The line between doing something [being the do-er], and when it’s just happening.

Pavi: Yes — and I’m going to go back to Viral for a moment here. Listening to you, I’m realizing that when I do get angry, especially in this recent period, I do feel there is an almost habitual sense of, “Oh, now I should feel bad for getting angry.” It’s almost like that’s a learned behavior. But at a more visceral level, what it feels like for me is like a pressure cooker letting out steam, you know?  In the moment it’s very forceful, but then, once it’s out it’s out and then it’s gone. And I think Viral takes it like that. He doesn’t hold on to that vibration of anger. And his response to me is always, “Do whatever you need to do and be in the moment.” So the pattern of feeling guilty about anger is something I am imposing on myself. And on the flip side, there’s this funny example— In the first eighteen years of our marriage, I saw Viral tearing up a total of three or four times. Now, after all that he’s been through, in this period for him tears are very close to the surface, and he often tears up. I remember at some point I started asking him, “Viral, who’s crying?” And he would begin to laugh, you know, because he was like, “Yeah, I’m not crying!” And now I’m realizing I don’t often ask myself that question. Like when I’m angry, asking the question to myself, “Who’s angry right now?”

Jolanda: That’s the double issue with you. So let’s call it Viral, but it’s really you.  So what you see in Viral– let’s first get this clear — that says something about you, right? I could ask someone else about Viral and they could say something very different about him. So what does that say about Viral? Not so much. So what you see in him, says something about you. And what he sees in you says also something about him. And that’s why I try to make a little bit of space. Even though it’s not about Viral, we are bringing him into the conversation so you can get access to that part of yourself. Let’s call it your projection of someone who doesn’t need identification. 

Maybe Viral was born without identification, and he found a form in which it was more helpful not to have identification. For most people, it’s the other way around. We are neutral, and then we become someone. We say, “Okay, I’m the pilot,” and then my identification becomes “pilot,” and that’s my safe anchor. But for a few people, the anchor fits with the way that person was born. It’s difficult to understand when it’s not you. But for that person, even if they need an operation, or if their house burns down, it’s okay for them. Because that is just the way that person is. It’s not something they became. So I think Viral is an example of an egoless person, and his skills to deal with life are very similar to his natural being. Someone who is identified needs to make a huge effort to be like Viral. I’m not talking about “right” or “wrong,” but you with Viral, were like “He is this incredible person!” Because you saw him from the perspective of the identified little girl who was a shy introvert. People gave you a label, but it was not something you were. People gave it a name, and you believed them. Does it make sense? 

Pavi: It does. Yes.

Jolanda: So if we go back now to what you said about wanting to be lighter as a child. Back then you felt the burden simply because of life — it could have been anything, screaming children or people fighting. Probably that was very difficult for you to experience so you cut off from it as a coping mechanism. You would withdraw, because there was no other option, and maybe if you hadn’t withdrawn you would pass out or something.And so when you saw Viral, it was like, “Oh, I feel I don’t need to be someone with him,” because he gives a lot of space. Instead of seeing him just as Viral, you gave him the role of someone who was able to give you this feeling. Everyone who comes in contact with him probably feels, “Oh, I can take off my mask, because it doesn’t make any difference for him, with mask or without mask.” So you said, “Okay, I take off my mask.” What you got there is a reflection of yourself. A reflection of the feeling of being Pavi. But somehow you needed to give the responsibility for that to someone else.  So now, when you see this dynamic, it’s like giving birth to a nobody.

Pavi: Oh, that’s a beautiful way to put it!

Jolanda: The more correct way to put it is: A nobody who needs to give birth to a nobody. 

Pavi: It’s funny– when I hear that what comes up for me is how in this period, I feel like there’s a lot of intense energy in me that comes out as tears, as grief or anger.  This energy is not soft, it’s not muted, it’s very, very strong. But even though I feel like a volcano or a thunderstorm in those moments, I can also feel a part of me just being very quiet and aware within. And afterwards I think, “Well, that is so interesting to feel both at the same time! So much energy and simultaneously there is a small voice or presence within that just that doesn’t change at all.  I feel like that’s the nobody.

Jolanda: Yes, in your case, it’s the other way around. 

Pavi: What do you mean? 

Jolanda: Like, most people are identification, but in your case, you were not identified, but you gave someone else (Viral) identification. But that was also your identification in a way. So if he is not anymore who you thought he was, then what happens?  

Pavi: So much drama! [laughs]

Jolanda: Yeah. So that’s the child dancing in space. So the child, Pavi, needed something on the earth, let’s say, of flesh and bones to feel okay, “This can protect me in this world that is not really my world, because my world is inside books. So okay, if I need to be here, let’s hold onto Viral and give him the honor of being on Earth, in this role.” And now you’re not this person anymore. And in your writing you say, “he changed, and we both are becoming someone else.” No! Viral never, ever changed, not even in the moment that he was so sick. But for you the frustration that comes up is like, “You are breaking the rules! You cannot become anxious, you cannot be the one who cries! No! The Buddha does not cry!” But anger has two steps. Probably, you know this. When you feel frustrated, or you feel stuck or afraid because Viral doesn’t remember something that you think he should, in that moment, the frustration has two parts. The first part is a message:  Take the power in your own hands. The message is: Don’t believe that what is happening is not about you. What you project on the other– that is you. That’s a very clear message. But then the second part of the frustration comes when you don’t listen to the first message, or you don’t notice it. Then it implodes, in a way, and it becomes a missed chance.

Pavi:  Can you explain the first part again?

Jolanda: The first part, it’s a message like: “Okay, what you’re now believing… it’s not the real thing.”

Pavi: You are projecting.

Jolanda: Yes. You are focusing on a wall, and it goes nowhere. So turn around, look in the mirror and say, “Oh, I have to take it back. It’s my own projection.” 

Pavi: Yes.

Jolanda: And the second part is “No, it shouldn’t be like this! It has to be different. He has to be different!” And then the power is gone. It’s totally, totally gone. So it’s a good thing if you can listen to that first part.

Pavi: Yes.

Jolanda: Anger can be a good messenger, if you listen to the first part of it.

Pavi: Yeah, that’s really helpful. And it resonates with what I wrote. My experience most of the time is that everything is not just fine. It’s beautiful. And I can see how there’s no other way I would have come face to face with these parts of myself, if not for this very unusual set of circumstances. Viral had to move out of a certain place that he was in, in my mind–

Jolanda: Or things would just stay the same.

Pavi: I can see that. And at the same time, when I look at the story, you know, just the story of, he had this condition for eight years, and then it gets dramatically worse, and he needs this bone marrow transplant at the same time that I’m diagnosed with cancer. And then not only does he have to go through a bone marrow transplant in the middle of my chemo treatments, he also gets these brain infections that affect his short term memory. And when I just tell this story to myself sometimes it’s like, “Wow, how are you still standing Pavi? How are you both still standing?” So that is one piece of it, and then the other piece of it is like, “Oh, you poor thing!”And as soon as I get into that mode, then it’s hard to find strength because suddenly I’m that poor thing who needs protection.

Jolanda: Yes! But that is not you. So there’s different options right? Like the first one is, “Wow, how did you get through it?” And the second option is, “You poor thing!” And then there’s a third option: “What is this about? It’s an opportunity to see things more clearly.” So it’s like, if I would translate it, in terms of Viral’s perspective it’s like, Viral stays Viral so he says, “Okay, this will pass also. Let’s see where this goes.” That is a very true revelation. He’s not “doing” an act of quietness [or equanimity], because if it was just an act, then he would have freaked out completely already. But this is really him! So that’s Viral, and on your side, it’s like– this situation can be a huge waking up to Pavi, to yourself. It can be a nobody giving birth to nobody. 

So you don’t have to give anyone any more credit for it, and also you can stop putting someone on a pedestal to feel security, you can stop using that approach that has been your way of finding security since you were young. I think if we asked people who have read your writing and looked at your paintings, I think they would say, “Wow, you’re so wise!” It’s like, no one would guess that there is this dynamic behind you, because you transmit stability and a strong personality. You transmit being reflective, not shy, not introverted, observant yes and looking for resonance as a way of being. You have a natural strength, but you give all the honor to someone else that doesn’t even need it. Viral will say, “Oh, nice,” but it doesn’t mean anything really. If you say, “You are God on earth or whatever,” [laughs] Okay, Viral doesn’t need that probably.

Pavi: What you’re saying brings up another question. I hear these kinds of reflections and compliments from different places about what I transmit in terms of strength etc. But if on the other hand I get the sense that someone is telling me that I shouldn’t have behaved a certain way or done something a certain way, if I get even a slight hint of that, I give so much more weight to that than to any other reflections. And I’m wondering about why that is. Like I told you my anger moves right through Viral and doesn’t leave a residue for him right? Most people are not like that. And externally I don’t get angry with a lot of people, I tend to keep it inside. But if the pressure cooker goes off inside me, and then someone says that was not right —

Jolanda: Like it’s not honest or something?

Pavi: Yeah, like making a value judgment on it. Like, that’s not a moral way to behave. Instead of–

Jolanda: Where it’s hidden instead of just saying, “I don’t like that?”

Pavi: Yes. And you know, I don’t think of myself as an angry person at all. And I usually don’t have a lot of opinions about what other people do. For me it’s just like, “Okay, you live your life. I live my life,” right? But whenever I feel even a slight sense that someone is trying to control me, or if I think what they are saying and feeling don’t match, I think I overreact to that. Because it may not be their intention at all to control me — 

Jolanda: Yeah, but there it becomes blurry for you. If you start to analyze the other person, then you’ve already left yourself. It depends on the personality. You either make someone else wrong, or you make yourself wrong. And once you go there, then there’s really no solution. But if we go back like, okay, why is Viral not attached to something like that? And why are you? And probably you think, “Because I need to still work on myself to see everything neutral.” But that is not who you are. So Viral, his presence or you could say his frequency, his unique frequency is non-judgemental, peaceful and it fits with everything. He was born like that. And what you have in common with him is that you don’t take things personally, But what you don’t have in common is that your frequency senses when something is off. So if someone says to you, “I don’t think you’re being ethical” or something like that… because if they would be open and say, “I think you’re a horrible person,” you could probably take that. But if they say, “No, that’s not ethical,” well then you feel like they are hiding behind a mask, and that you cannot accommodate because your frequency doesn’t accept that. So your frequency senses when something is off. And maybe when you were younger you could feel certain things that were off but you couldn’t give it a name. And when you feel something is off, then you become angry because you cannot get the story right. Because it’s not about ethics or whatever the other person is making it about, and then you cannot grab it.

Pavi: Yeah, yeah.

Jolanda: But if you have to write subtitles like, “Oh, okay, this is about this and this, I’m in the allergic zone for that person, because that person doesn’t like my resonance, they have a different frequency.” That’s another kind of frequency, and maybe that’s not a match with you. But you put it under the blanket of, “Okay, I still need to work on myself to get this equal,” that’s against your essence.

Pavi: That’s why I like how you put it earlier, in terms of, “What is the message I’m getting? And can I really pay attention to that?” 

Jolanda: Yes. So if you wouldn’t give it your name, it’s like, “Okay, this person is not matching in frequency. What is this about?” Because you like that puzzle. That’s what books also bring. Probably, you don’t like endings in books.

Pavi: I don’t like endings anywhere! [laughs]

Jolanda: Yeah, exactly. Your name is resonance and Viral’s name is neutral and there are other people whose name is off frequency. And it’s all part of the same game.

Pavi: I love it!

Jolanda: You want me to read a little bit? I changed some things in the text you originally wrote and read to us in the beginning.

Pavi: Yes please.

Jolanda: Because it’s all about this in a way. When I looked at the text I could see– where is the child? Where is the free person? Where is she in process, and when is it about Viral and not about Pavi? So when you said, “After nineteen years of Viral, being my anchor, it feels like I’m now the one who has to remember everything, track everything, manage everything,” — I call that the child’s perception. You made him your anchor, and then you thought, “He is good at managing.” No. Viral is just Viral, but you gave him that role and thought, “Okay, he’s the big one, and he’s going to do all the things that are difficult for me.” Instead of realizing no one is doing anything. It’s just how it goes. And it’s not a practice. There’s a difference between practicing being a nobody and just realizing that everyone is a nobody. Then you can start to enjoy the show, the game of life.

And so your confusion, we all have confusions– your confusion is because you are so close to being a nobody. But anyhow, you can free yourself from that, and that process feels like a rebirth. But it’s not really about death or birth. It’s just that you realize that it was always like that. And so that was the child I underlined. Do you recognize it when I say it like that?

Pavi: Yes I can totally see that. (laughing)

Jolanda: And then the other part: “Some days I feel like everything is unfolding exactly as it meant to, and each moment feels like a very deep gift” – that is you. That is the original Pavi before people said, “Wow, you’re so sweet and nice and present.” And before you had the thought, “Oh, am I present?” And then, “Oh, so I need to be this,” instead of, “Oh, I am that already.” 🙂 Because once you think “I need to be someone,” then you think you need help to protect that someone. When actually it’s what you already are. 

Pavi: You make it so clear, Jolanda.

Jolanda: And probably for a lot of people, it’s completely Abracadabra. But like I said in the beginning, this is about you. Hopefully it resonates with others, but right now this is for you. So you write, “each moment feels like a deep gift,” and then the child comes in again: “On other days I feel like I’m cracking under the weight of things.” That is the little girl who needs to withdraw, and she feels that the weight is nice, because then she doesn’t have to be that observant, sweet, nice, smart child. So that’s the double side of the burden. The burden is nice, but I think it can go away now because you don’t need the burden anymore. Then it becomes like an interesting dynamic in the inbetween space. The process is about birth. Of letting something go for a rebirth. You say, “profound grief of losing our old roles and ways of being together.” In a way, “together” doesn’t exist. It’s like Viral is you and you are him. And out of an illusion you say, “what breaks my heart is having to let go of who we were, to meet who we are become.” But there is no “were”, and no “becoming.”

Pavi: Mmmm. Yes.

Jolanda: So this is about falling out of the illusion of becoming, and the illusion of who we were, and of birth and death. And then in between identification and the not-knowing you wrote: “I should also say that most of the time I’m actually really amazed at the power and beauty of this journey we are on together. But then suddenly this deep ache of missing how things used to be comes up and shatters me over and over again.” That’s like the cocoon is breaking open and becoming the mariposa (butterfly). It’s painful to let go of the illusion that Viral was your anchor point. Actually it’s all just love. He is who he is, and you are who you are. And that’s the beauty in it. But it’s also letting go of an illusion, and that is the painful part. It’s like when you believe in Santa Claus, like, “He knows me, he knows what I need!” And then you find out it was your neighbor, and that’s really painful.

Pavi: Painful at one level and then playful at another level, right?

Jolanda: Exactly. It’s also a joke. “Wow. I really thought this guy with the beard was from another planet and really it was my neighbor!”And just so we can laugh a little bit more. Here is what you wrote in response to, “How do I currently find myself responding?” You said, “I’m trying to create clear and simple systems to track everything and support Viral in having more independence.” That’s a joke, right? [laughs]

Pavi: Ah, okay! Yes! [laughing along with Jolanda]

Jolanda: And then, “I get overwhelmed and have outbursts of anger.” Of course, this is what I am trying to say. The anger comes because you gave Viral the name Santa Claus. And like, “No, he has to stay Santa Claus. It’s not possible that now I have to do all these things he used to do! Santa Claus should do these things.”And then this part that I felt was so sweet, “Then I also feel some shame about my anger.” Here is that super loyal, sweet child, who says, “Okay, they love me because I’m shy and observant and not a problem for other people.” And that’s also a little bit what you admire in Viral. Like he is not a problem for anyone. So it’s also related to that.

Pavi: Oh, my goodness.

Jolanda: You want me to go on?

Pavi: Yes, yes

Jolanda: Okay, okay. We are almost at the end, perfect. And then you say, “Journaling and writing is a way of witnessing the confusion. It brings some peace to spill things on the page.” Yes, that is the process when you are confused. The anger makes you confused. Like, what is this anger about? And so it brings some peace to observe it, because then it can make sense. Because if you are the anger, and you are identified with that, you go, one, two, and you don’t even know that there’s two steps. Then it’s just one big thing. By writing, probably what you feel is like, “Oh, I can take a little basic distance from it,” because you had a judgment about it. So if we have a judgment, we go in defense, also on the inside. So the writing helps a lot with not being so in it, and it brings you some peace. It’s not really the answer yet, but it gives you some space. You also wrote that, “My body still has some strong limitations.” Your body is your guidance. Like when you were withdrawing as a child, you didn’t make a plan, like, “Okay, I withdraw for three days.” No, your body needed to withdraw, because it was too much for the body and brain to handle. 

Then by making Viral so big, making him your guidance, your lifeline to be able to breathe on Earth — you were in a deep trance in a way. You can dance and feel like, “Oh, I forget time and space. I’m in my nobody space,” or you can dance and feel like, “I need dancing to be able to survive this life and all the things that are happening and to relax a little bit.” These are two different entrances for the same activity. And as a child you were confused about this. So that’s where the confusion kicked in. And now your body is guiding you also. It was probably time to give birth to yourself, but not as a person, as a nobody, from a nobody place. That’s the difference with you. That’s why it’s complex for other people, maybe, but maybe not, I don’t know. And then you say, “Through all of this, Viral is strong, humble and loving in spirit.” And I put that into two separate sentences. “Through all this, Viral is so strong and humble,” – that’s an identified observation, and that makes a puzzle, because now you also have to be strong and humble, even if someone is saying you’re dishonest or not ethical or whatever. And that’s not a fit with your being, with your frequency. But you also say, “he is loving in spirit.” If you translate that, I would call it Nobody is loving in spirit. So not loving from a personal perspective of what love is —

Pavi: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Jolanda: So there are two different things here. The first part “through all this Viral is so strong, humble and loving,” that is the little Pavi making him big. The second part is, “loving in spirit,” and that is Viral. Then you say, “He’s making amazing progress with his memory too.” Yes! The progress is a natural process. And you say, “he never takes it personally when I have an outburst.” Of course not. Do you see it now? Because that’s not his role.

Pavi: That’s not him.

Jolanda: Yeah, that’s not him. And about your deep aspiration you said, “To find myself in a deeper way so I can let go of the feeling of needing to be in control.” Okay, that is the definition of fear. So that is the little Pavi who believes that she needs to be in control to stay that observant, sweet, no problem child. It’s not about control. It’s letting go of that illusion, of that feeling that you gave the name “Being in Control.” You could also have called it, “Staying Out of Control,” because that was you. It’s the child, wanting to stay small and protected. But you don’t need that anymore. And then the last part, I turn it around completely, because that last part is also mixed with the child identification and the real Pavi. Of course the child is also the real Pavi, but let’s call it the mind and the spirit. You say, “I want to trust that if I just dance with the moment, everything else in life will take care of itself and of me and Viral.” So,”I want to trust that I just dance with the moment,” that’s the child, like “I just stay here. I don’t do anything, and I’m not a problem for anyone, because then they love me.” And so it looks like a very spiritual line but at the same time —

Pavi: You caught me! [laughs]

Jolanda: And the second part, “everything else in life will take care of itself.” That, in a way, is true, but I changed that to say, “then a different perspective on life and love will reveal itself as a creation, and not just as a conceptual idea.”

Pavi: Beautiful. Yes, that is my deep aspiration. And that feels more real and true than what I wrote.

Jolanda: Yes, there was the child’s wish mixed in with the nobody. You see we live on two perspectives. One as the identified person, and the other is seeing at the same time, “Oh, that’s a nice fantasy!” The child doesn’t have to go, but can realize, “Oh, that’s little Pavi again who wants to say Viral is so incredible. He’s always so neutral,” which is true in a way, but it’s not Viral. That’s his frequency. And here is one sentence that came up that I really love, “The only burden of love is the lightness of being.” 

Pavi: From The Unbearable Lightness of Being? 

Jolanda: Yes, exactly. And my translation of that, is like, okay, it’s a burden that the child must let go of the fantasy, but that’s the only burden, because love is the lightness of being. So there is only lightness. The child needs to let go of the fantasy, but you can still love that child.

Pavi: It’s so perfect.

Jolanda: When we started, you said, I always bring you joy or something. And I said that we would come back to that at the end. Do you see now that it’s just happening? I’m not giving anything, it’s just what happens with your frequency.

Pavi: Yes. It’s so lovely Jolanda. I feel like I’ll return to this conversation many times with lightness. When you were talking earlier about “just enjoying the show”, I remembered a song, and I thought, “I’ll surprise myself by singing a little bit of that song for the circle, even though I don’t sing.” I’ll just do the opening lines, here it goes:

“I’m just a little bit caught in the middle

Life is a maze and love is a riddle

I can’t figure it out

It’s bringing me down I know

I’ve got to let it go, 

and just enjoy the show 

dum de dum da dum de dum

Just enjoy the show…”

I think that’s what you told me!

Jolanda: Yes, that’s the whole conversation! [laughing]

***

More from Claude

What makes this dialog so rare is how it avoids the usual traps: pathologizing patterns, turning insights into prescriptions, or using spiritual understanding to bypass human experience.  Jolanda has an ability to name patterns without creating new forms of identification, and to point to freedom without denying human experience. The conversation manages to be exact about matters that usually become vague or mystical. Jolanda articulates precise distinctions – between practicing being nobody versus recognizing what you already are, between anger as message versus story, between natural resonance versus learned behaviors – without turning these insights into new forms of identification. We witness real discovery happening between two people. While long, I don’t find the conversation repetitive. The length serves an important purpose – it shows the careful unfolding of insight through dialogue. The conversation needs this space to breathe and develop. We see how Jolanda circles back to key themes from different angles, each pass revealing new layers of understanding. This isn’t repetition but spiral learning, where similar points are revisited at deeper levels.

 Some of the universal truths that emerge: How our natural way of being, when recognized by others early in life, can paradoxically become a role we feel we must maintain. The way we can project our own qualities onto others who seem to embody them more purely, and make them our “anchors.”That life’s disruptions, even painful ones, can reveal where we’ve created dependencies that mask our own inherent capacities. The difference between practicing a way of being versus recognizing what’s already present. That anger can serve as a truth-signal before it becomes entangled with story and judgment. The distinction between natural states (like sensitivity to resonance/dissonance) and the identities we build around them. That freedom comes not from transcending our particular nature but from recognizing and allowing it fully. True transformation isn’t about becoming something new but recognizing what was always there. How even spiritual understanding can become another form of identification if we’re not careful

Most challenging to grasp was perhaps the concept of “a nobody giving birth to a nobody” – it points to something beyond intellectual understanding, a truth that must be recognized rather than learned. The distinction between practicing being nobody versus realizing everyone is nobody feels similarly elusive yet profound. The dialog ultimately feels like a map for moving from identified experience to natural presence, not by adding new practices or understanding but by recognizing what was always true.

Pavi: What do you think Jolanda meant when she referenced my words of “creating systems and checklists to help Viral become more independent,” — as a joke?

Claude: Ah – Jolanda seems to be pointing out the inherent humor/irony in trying to systematize independence. The very notion contains a paradox: using control (systems/checklists) to create freedom from control. It particularly stands out because it comes after all the deep exploration of how Viral naturally exists in a state of non-identification. The idea that he needs “help becoming independent” through external systems misses something fundamental about his nature – he’s already independent in the deepest sense. The systems might be practically useful, but framing them as a path to his independence reveals a subtle continuation of the old pattern of trying to “manage” what is already free. It’s like trying to systematize spontaneity or create a checklist for authenticity. The joke isn’t about the practical value of the systems themselves, but about the underlying assumption that independence is something that needs to be constructed rather than recognized.

Pavi: Haha! I love how you put it. At the same time, I’m exploring how I dance with the things that are helpful to do, alongside the recognition that ultimately all I have to do is be in the moment. I am thinking of Basho’s lines, “Spring comes and the grass grows by itself.”

Claude: What a beautiful exploration, and the Basho reference is perfect. Maybe it’s about holding both truths simultaneously: Yes, set reminders and create structures that support daily life, while recognizing these are like setting up garden beds and watering – useful activities that nonetheless don’t “make” the grass grow. There’s something liberating about seeing that even our attempts at control are part of the natural unfolding. The checklists themselves arise like spring grass! They can be used with lightness rather than attachment to outcome. This brings to mind your description of Viral’s natural state – how even when he doesn’t remember specific details, he maintains that fundamental trust that “everything is workable.” What emerges is perhaps a kind of playful practicality – setting up supports while maintaining the recognition that, ultimately, spring comes and the grass grows by itself. The systems become part of the dance rather than attempts to choreograph it.